President Hillary?

You sound a little bitter, Paladin, seeing that the GOP didn't do anything to you personally, it would behoove me to say have you truly suffered that much on a personal level? Sadly, I WILL say that the GOP isn't conservative, enough, and that they have reneged their core values at the price of popularity. I think that comes with party politics in general, though.

I think the problem is that people seem to gravitate towards the word, "change," and every candidate wants to accomplish just that, "change." It happened during the Clinton years, and let's face it...we already had Hillary as President by proxy, so I wouldn't want to have her, again. On the other side of the coin, Obama is very eloquent and speaks a great line. Problem is, no one knows how he plans to implement that sort of "change." The problem doesn't seem to be with the politicians as it is with the people, I think. They want change, but they're expecting others to "fix" their problems.

Vade Vexx wrote:

Paladin.....I LIKE YOU ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why thank you Vade. I just call it like i've seen it and experienced dude. Usually good, other times bad. Sadly I have this problem with my brain, i'm unable to daydream. Especially about any hippy utopias where we all hold hands and group hug because special interest groups FINALLY have free paychecks and healthcare... at my expense. Especially since I also cannot flip it and daydream that everyday is 4th of July, the U.S. Gov't as this wonderfully awsome omnipotent force benefitting by robbing me. Just doesn't really "work" for me, as much as i'd like it to or for that matter, daydream it to be.

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You sound a little bitter, Paladin,

Perhaps I do. Perhaps.... I am? If I truly am i'm actually fine with that. I know I should... pick a side, maybe? But that I cannot do. That's not how I work nor is it how the world works. Picking a side? Won't fix anything. Picking a side? Doesn't make one person/side right/wrong. I guess I COULD, you know, pick one side or the other except that on non-moral issues there IS no side. You can either be controlled by the Goverment(Left-Wing) ORRRRRR by Corporations(Right-Wing). I pass. On both. Even though i've yet to experience Communism in my life, I trust it truly is a massive evil on par with Capitalism, what I HAVE experienced, continue to experience.

I don't like Capitalism. Never have. Never will. I am not a number. I am not an easily replaceable "thing". I am not just some puppet for a wealthy businessmen. Never have. Never will. Nobody is. We should prove that we aren't.

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seeing that the GOP didn't do anything to you personally,

Oh... it hasn't? Actually it has. I'm not going to get into it all on this forum, one because it would be an 800 page essay listing all the ways I HAVE been wronged, my family has been wronged, by the GOP through the years, or rather the last 28 years. Minus that 8 year break in the 1990's.

I will say though, they have. Actually, they've wronged many people many times. Perhaps if they actually would change, for the better, I could put that aside. Forgive, NOT forget, but partially forgive.

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it would behoove me to say have you truly suffered that much on a personal level?

As stated above I have.

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Sadly, I WILL say that the GOP isn't conservative,

Certainly they're not. They haven't been for a really, really long time. At this point it is just a tad too late to "BE" Conservative, as there really isn't much left TO conserve. They have already sold it out. Replaced what made America great with starbucks, with supercenters. Replaced massive chunks of American strongholds, such as agriculture, with strip malls and "sprawling" suburbias, nothing more then concrete jungles for those deep deep into credit dept living off credit card after credit card. Cultureless and substanceless. Surely lacking that American Culture my ancestors helped build and define.

While they can claim to and perhaps one day once again seek to conserve what is left of American ideals it is too little, too late. You can't expect to be able to turn society into a cultureless, consumerist, materialist society then in exchange uphold any sort of morality or honor. It doesn't work that way. If you are going to conserve, thus BE Conservative you then are morally obligated to conserve EVERYTHING that made America great. Not piecemeal. Not here and there. Not "only sometimes".

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I think the problem is that people seem to gravitate towards the word, "change," and every candidate wants to accomplish just that, "change."

Small correction, every candidate CLAIMS to want that. They don't. People want change because deep down inside, that little voice they buried and try to ignore is telling them and deep deep down every working American trying to make ends meet knows, whether they wish to admit so or not, current Gov't SUCKS. The current situation in America SUCKS. Absolutely people are gravitating towards change. They've already experienced regressive politics, now they want to truly progress.

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It happened during the Clinton years, and let's face it...we already had Hillary as President by proxy, so I wouldn't want to have her, again.

I do. I made money. My bills got paid. Had as much overtime as I wanted. Was so busy *I* set MY price, not the other way around. Not that i'm blaming Bush for the first recession that ruined that, it was just a byproduct of 9/11. I do however blame him for telling me and millions of Americans we don't WANT to do our jobs anymore, that illegal criminal rapist alcoholics want to do them at a lower price then me, or rather US. Violating state and federal laws across the board, but it being OKAY because face it, the big guy has a tough job and has to make ends meet however he can. Preferrably(for Right Wing Capitalism) by outsourcing the work and insourcing labor pools.

I'll take my chances with another Clinton. As I said, i'm ready to make money again. If the Gov't wants to promote the destruction of America at least let me get mine so as I can buy up as much land as possible and preserve as one person as much as possible.... until the GOP decides to take that land, or rather TRIES to, through imminent domain.

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On the other side of the coin, Obama is very eloquent and speaks a great line. Problem is, no one knows how he plans to implement that sort of "change."

He has no plan. Even if he did it too wouldn't work because again life doesn't work that way. Oh sure he'll give this SEG this or that, this group this or that, make sure those poor souls who "have to take a job to make ends meet" get their handouts and healthcare so they no longer have to work, all the while making sure his DINOS(Democratic In Name Only) Unions get their piece of the pie, despite Unionization going from an American ideal to it's deathbed not to just another large corporation screwing Americans much like Republican corporations. Their piece of the pie? More of those alcoholic DUI getting rapists and murderers Unionized. Less Americans. Legislation skewed to favor Unionist big business models eliminating what little guys remain. Which would be me. I'll pass on that.

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The problem doesn't seem to be with the politicians as it is with the people, I think. They want change, but they're expecting others to "fix" their problems.

I think most just want the Gov't to fix the problems THEY created. If they actually WOULD? We wouldn't need universal healthcare, or welfare, or Unions, or any of that. We'd all have decent paying jobs, a nice culture created from 232 years of the American way. Americans would once again truly have a voice and would once again be well off, able to raise the kids they create while only one parent HAS to work a single job to make ends meet. We'd once again be able to walk into a store in America and *gasp* buy American products MADE by Americans! The horrors. My kinda change. Middle Classes kinda change? I believe it to be so. Barrack Hussein isn't going to get us there. Nor is any Republican except Ron Paul, perhaps Tom Tancredo, a refreshing politically incorrect politician who wasn't afraid of standing up and doing the right thing. Buchanan, except he's Republican In Name Only, he's too Pro-America to be a genuine GOP'er.

Clinton? Probably not. BUT, bring us closer? Possibly. I'm willing to take that risk. If not? We get four more years of the same. Maybe at least made a few more dollars to buy a few more toys for the kids or parts for the car. If not, God help us all. If Barrack Hussein is elected? R.I.P. America. You've been taken off the life support my dear and it's time for me at least to move on. Return to the fatherland. Build some windmills and drink a few Heinekens in Holland or play some hockey up in Canada. Try and build my familial future a future where I actually can. Because this mess certainly isn't the kind of place I want my blood to inherit.

One last thing, kinda on a side note. I don't think it accidental Republican apologists are willing to "throw a sacrifice vote" for Clinton. Ann Coulter in the like. They're just not brave enough to openly say what they wanna say, that of the four she'd likely be the best choice out of the group. They can say this or that, they don't like McDubya this and that but they know the truth. They know what is up.

Though I dont want to cause any hard feelings with any of the old timers on here (being one myself) I have to speak up about your posts....Paladan, There is too many 100% valid points that you made for me to comment on. The voice of reason , well thought out answers....Truth that might hurt, but truth nonetheless. Your thoughts of leaving a country that CHOOSES to fall to the crimes of capitolism is quite honorable. Though my Fatherland that I would re-locate to would be Germany/Scotland/Norway, I understand your point. Indeed my thoughts on capitolism is dire to say the least. Communism, well, I would rather eat the buisness end of a shotgun than to fall to that beast.
Paladan, it would be nice to talk to you via other communication pathways.
88-14

I'm against any form of socialism based on government mentality. I know that if you read the book of Acts seeing how the church worked around things, everyone shared everything. However, if you take a look at how it was done, no one was forced to "give away" anything. It was not out of duty that anyone gave up their resources to support the struggling first church. The sin of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 was not that they didn't give away all that was theirs, but rather that they lied about how much they gave, claiming it was the full amount.

I never made a dime during the 90's except when I worked for the Internal Revenue Service, and I hated that job with a passion. I was being paid a good salary, but it seemed like too much for simply shuffling papers around for the secretary. In other words, it was a $7/hour job that should've been worth $3/hour, but because of minimum wage requirements, the job paid more than it was worth. Several years after I graduated from Fresno State University, I got a job that wasn't able to pay me what it was worth, but it was a good start for a possible career. I got laid off a couple of years ago, but I'm not complaining since I got payback on my SSI because I am disabled.

Now, here's what I'm hopefully trying to say and still be coherent. There's plenty of blame to go around on politicians, but there's a lot of blame that falls on us when we elect politicians who give us "everything we want." We are all selfish by nature, and we'll do anything to line our pockets regardless of what's going on in the culture, and whether our leaders stand firm on moral and social issues. People got rich during the 90's at the expense of the moral failures that were going on. These days, we have more regulations and more taxes, and any good economist knows that if you put more burdens on goods and services, they end up costing more to the consumer. I wish I had taken my economics class over again. I probably would've done better this year than I would've when I was a senior in high school.

Okay, I think I'm done ranting. I think I've made my point.

Interesting all around. Let's keep it going. Starting with Vexx.

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Though I dont want to cause any hard feelings with any of the old timers on here (being one myself) I have to speak up about your posts....Paladan, There is too many 100% valid points that you made for me to comment on. The voice of reason , well thought out answers....Truth that might hurt, but truth nonetheless.

I hope I don't cause any hard feelings either. That said, thank you. I appreciate the kind words and encouragement. While technically born of the modern times, my frame of mind and how I was brought up are from a different period. A long lost period, even. For example the town I was raised in, thankfully, has been perpetually stuck in the 1950's. At least it was then, not so much any longer. The bastions of what they would term capitalistic "success" have slowly but surely been taking over that area, eroding it into another faceless look alike manufactured town.

Am I holding onto certain aesthetics of a historic period? Absolutely. It worked. It was the epitome of America, American. An observation/question. For anyone. How many of your neighbors do you know? People in the town, even the next block. If you have children, and let's say they're playing a couple blocks away or on the other end of town... How many people in that area by any chance do you know well enough they'd call you on their own free will to let you know your children are playing in that area and safe? It's this darn thing called community. You're not gonna find it hardly anymore. Much less in some recently sprouted suburbia, where all the houses look alike and the biggest issue is who has the nicest car on the street.

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Your thoughts of leaving a country that CHOOSES to fall to the crimes of capitolism is quite honorable.

Again, thank you. It's ironic actually. My grandparents came here because America was great. Looked apon as perhaps the greatest. Through nothing but hard work and lots of it they built something special, timeless even.

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Though my Fatherland that I would re-locate to would be Germany/Scotland/Norway, I understand your point.

Nice countries, certainly. Despite their Muslim invasions they still maintain their culture by God.

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I'm against any form of socialism based on government mentality. I know that if you read the book of Acts seeing how the church worked around things, everyone shared everything. However, if you take a look at how it was done, no one was forced to "give away" anything. It was not out of duty that anyone gave up their resources to support the struggling first church. The sin of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 was not that they didn't give away all that was theirs, but rather that they lied about how much they gave, claiming it was the full amount.

That is all well and good. I actually agree, non-Governmental Socialism is a good thing and needed moreso. What I disagree on is the Gov't part. Gov't instituting Socialist ideals isn't a bad thing per se, provided there is a fair balance. The problem arises when this side wants 100% of this, that side 100% of that. Then we just get stalemates. Or we get an extreme of one side or the other and it fails.

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I never made a dime during the 90's except when I worked for the Internal Revenue Service, and I hated that job with a passion.

I'm sorry to hear that. There certainly were no shortages of jobs at the time, at least not like now.

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I was being paid a good salary, but it seemed like too much for simply shuffling papers around for the secretary. In other words, it was a $7/hour job that should've been worth $3/hour, but because of minimum wage requirements, the job paid more than it was worth.

I disagree. Any job that NEEDS to be done is worth a livable wage. Minimum wage is a nessesity, however still sorely lacking in the livable department. Without minimum wage that job along with others WOULD be $3/hr. Many others. Obviously the goal of people like Bush, but something i'll always fight against. Anyone who puts in a days work for a days wages deserves wages commensurate with the local economy at minimum. Sadly one more thing Americans tear each other up over, even though livable wages are one of the many positives of "Socialistic" ideals.

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Several years after I graduated from Fresno State University, I got a job that wasn't able to pay me what it was worth, but it was a good start for a possible career.

This is why the employees deserve a voice. So THEY can get what they are worth, and what the job is worth. Once apon a time that was widely accepted. Obviously no longer, but it origionally was with good reason. Without the employee, not another number but another human being and individual, having a voice they'll GET $3/HR. Or be replaced. It's simple.

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Now, here's what I'm hopefully trying to say and still be coherent. There's plenty of blame to go around on politicians, but there's a lot of blame that falls on us when we elect politicians who give us "everything we want."

I would agree, if we actually got whatever it is we want. We don't. One side promises us one thing and one certain group gets all of it, the other promises us another thing and gives it all to the wealthy. Because according to an actor acting, the more Gov't gives the wealthy the more Americans get. Not exactly. Again, balance. There needs to be a balance. Where is that balance? That remains to be seen. Until we stop playing political games we won't find out for 100% certain.

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We are all selfish by nature, and we'll do anything to line our pockets regardless of what's going on in the culture, and whether our leaders stand firm on moral and social issues.

Again, this is fairly new. Starting from the 1960's moving foreward. Our "leaders", who usually aren't even leaders to begin with, have no morals. They proclaim they do. They act like they do. They don't. Because politics distilled to its very essense is amoral. A political office is essentially another employee, Americans being the employer. We hire them for our benefit much like any employer. We want this, this, this, and that. A majority has hired you for that job. Do it. You have four years. Don't do it and you are fired.

Instead we get a corporate entity taking the job only doing what benefits them. Theirs. Everything else, including moral stances is filler. It's of no substance. They're waving this hand while doing THEIR deals with the other hand. In return emotion driven people decide to hire them based on moralistic ideals.

My point? It honestly isn't Gov'ts position to institute any sort of morality. It is to uphold the Constitution and what made America great. If people honestly are pro-life it is up to them to Educate. Educate until nobody is doing it any longer and that facet of life goes out of business. No more abortion. Simple. That works for a vast majority of the Republican "moral" agenda. However as I said, picking morality here and there, then rationalizing the rest? Doesn't work. Either you are moral or you're not. Either you truly love America or you don't. There can be no in between.

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People got rich during the 90's at the expense of the moral failures that were going on.

See above. See recent history. There has been one President in the last 50 years, at the LEAST, who has succeeded at morality. His name is Jimmy Carter. One. He is also regarded as a terrible President, overwhelmed and unable to fix the multitude of mistake and mishap dumped into his lap from the previous Presidents. As I am pretty sure you're alluding to the Right-Wing propaganda mill, that likes to paint this revisionist history where Bill Clinton was the first shot fired in the erosion of moralist culture, it isn't true. It was never true. Moral relativity and morally failing started under the Republicans watch, on the Republicans dime. Bill Clinton much like George W. Bush in a sense as well as McCain or Hussein, whichever takes charge are all symptoms of such really.

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These days, we have more regulations and more taxes,

They are nessesary. While the tax system DOES need overhauled. The money needs to actually go for public good as it was intended. As for regulations, it is nessesary. Always will be nessesary. In fact I would say we need MORE regulation. That is, more regulation slanted towards benefitting American owned, American located businesses.

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and any good economist knows that if you put more burdens on goods and services, they end up costing more to the consumer.

Ahhh yes, good old economists. I too enjoy reading up on their ideology, in small doses. The problem with most, they are idealists instead of realists. What they pen to paper certainly LOOKS good, and reads quite well the more life experience I gain the more I realize what i've perhaps already known, there is a huge gap between their ideology and reality.

The whole cost/effect rational? It is one part daydreaming, one part propaganda. The fallacy begins with that being universal. It is not. Further along the trail it isn't the action taken that causes the price to rise. At least not in every single situation. The action creates an excuse for a reaction. It is theexact same with the minimum wage is bad fallacy. Certainly if the companies paying out minimum wage adjusted and ONLY they adjusted it would hold at least a little weight. Except when it becomes an easy excuse for businesses and industries who DON'T pay minimum wage to raise their costs, not wages, not benefits one bit, but costs.

All that said to illustrate a point. The so called "good" economists have their utopia. Corporate owns and controls everything. The utopia has arrived. What is it we now have had not once, not twice, not even three times but four times? Recession. That little thing they claimed to be rid of. 28 years and four recessions. One certainly nobodies fault in politics or larger society(9/11), three others the fault of the capitalistic fantasy.

"Good" economists claimed THEIR idealogy would create more jobs, higher pay, ect. It didn't. It failed. Jobs are gone. Cost of living is through the roof while wages haven't changed in a decade.

Now what is the one thing these economists proclaim as the answer to ALL our problems? The grand plan that supposedly benefits everyone? An open market. What has eroded America? What has been root cause for recession after recession, rising unemployment, lower wages, ect? An open market. They're not even 100% there yet and it has failed. It failed because it created a wide open nexus wherein corporate has control. Where they can, and now do, just relocate operations to another country. To even... 3rd world countries where they can pay nickles a day instead of a decent wage to an American who is now unemployed. Their ideology doesn't work. It never will.

What works is what has worked before. You close ports. You close borders. Oh sure, they can move out of America if they want to, they still have that right. Only they SHOULD rightfully be heavily penalized for it. At minimum 50% import tax. The tax breaks? The big breaks and loyalty and all that should go to the business that ARE American and above all stay American. Certainly continue exporting, that DOES benefit us. Importing EVERYTHING? Not one bit. Put it this way if you want a recession proof economy, Americans working instead of unemployed and a vibrant country it boils down to you having to keep it American. Other countries already understand that. To not do so truly is insane.

Any American economy needs to be pro-American first and foremost. This means regulation. This means tariffs and heavy taxes for predators. This means preventing corporate monopolies and interests. This means skewing it so as any American who operates or wishes to operate a small business can do so without a larger business being able to crush them. Small businesses can hold up the economy. Small businesses are the American ideal. Granted my history is a tad rusty but for the life of me I cannot recall that revised part of Republican history where Americans came here to crowd into suburban neighborhoods and work for large corporations. I remember them coming here and building their own businesses, though. Building actual communities.

Hope this isn't all way too long.

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Any job that NEEDS to be done is worth a livable wage. Minimum wage is a nessesity, however still sorely lacking in the livable department. Without minimum wage that job along with others WOULD be $3/hr. Many others. Obviously the goal of people like Bush, but something i'll always fight against. Anyone who puts in a days work for a days wages deserves wages commensurate with the local economy at minimum. Sadly one more thing Americans tear each other up over, even though livable wages are one of the many positives of "Socialistic" ideals.

This was a starting job. It wasn't supposed to be a living wage job. It wasn't worth the $7/hr I was getting because it was just busywork for the secretary. It was something to start me off. Should I have gone further in training, maybe I could've worked my way up. That's the way it should be. Most people who work at McDonald's don't expect to stay there for the rest of their lives. If they have goals in mind, they want to work their way up to the top. That's the ideal. Some people are willing to step on others to get there, but in the end, the private sector, not the government needs to hold people to task.

This is a poor example, but the American Family Association and other groups targeted the Ford Motor Co. for not taking a neutral stance on the homosexual issue, but rather celebrating it. As a result, sales have dropped tremendously, and people have thought twice before buying Ford products.

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This is why the employees deserve a voice. So THEY can get what they are worth, and what the job is worth. Once apon a time that was widely accepted. Obviously no longer, but it origionally was with good reason. Without the employee, not another number but another human being and individual, having a voice they'll GET $3/HR. Or be replaced. It's simple.

I REALLY take offense to this because the church I was at could NOT afford to hire me for what I was worth. Right now, they're barely even making ends meet! My wages were low simply because of my SSI payments. Like I said, this will look good on a resume, and if a job should come along that pays well, I have experience. It was more fulfilling than the SSI job that paid more than what I was worth simply because someone said I should be paid that. I'm not going to demand my rights because it was a privilege to work for them! They needed someone right away because they were desparate, and I happened to have business cards that I passed around at the time. I never realized it would turn into a job. It's not the ideal, but what's money worth when you do what you love doing?

It's late, and I don't have a whole lot of time to get into this because I'm tired, but when I get the chance, we'll discuss this more.

Alright gave it a few days now i'll jump back in.

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This was a starting job. It wasn't supposed to be a living wage job. It wasn't worth the $7/hr I was getting because it was just busywork for the secretary.

Once again I reiterate any job that needs to be done is worth a fair, livable wage. Should I say it again? ANY job that NEEDS to be done is worth a FAIR and LIVABLE wage. The Gov't needs those papers filed. They thus need to supply good pay for that. For YOU maybe it was a starting job. For another person? Perhaps a single mother with kids? It could be the ONLY job available at the time. Of course the rightwing ideology would be her working 80 hours a week, two of those $3/hr jobs in order to pay the bills. Kinda like communism. That's not how it works. That isn't how America was founded.

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That's the way it should be.

Perhaps it should be. No doubt people should have to work their way up. The problem is the whole ideal I guess you're trying to promote to me prevents that. A minimum wageless, unregulated, open globalist market prevents that. Nobody will have the time nor available funds TO move up the ladder. They'll be making that $3/hr across the board because hey, Firefighters are just holding a hose towards some fire, a $3/hr job. Mechanic? Oh you're just fixing cars that's not worth anything. Not like you're the guy slaving over the golf course 10+ hours a day "making ends meet" with your $3+ million a year corporation.

No dice. The same way Gov't shouldn't be able to control all of our lives, the same with corporations. Which is what the neocon capitalistic agenda wants to replace Gov't with. It's already taking place. Already failing. Over and over and over and over again.

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Most people who work at McDonald's don't expect to stay there for the rest of their lives.

Considering McDonalds is a racist corporation who gives preferential hiring to non-English speaking illegals instead of the traditional high school kids? Bad example. I'm pretty sure those current employees making $5.15/hr are hoping they can stay there forever.

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they have goals in mind, they want to work their way up to the top. That's the ideal.

McDonald's employees? Yeah they got goals in mind. Not getting deported. The rest? Americans do have goals. That's not the problem. The problem again is the capitalistic theory and pipe dreams of everything privatized, corporations holding control, no minimum they have to pay people and so on nobody WILL rise to the top. They won't. It'll be no different then Cuba or Russia. We'll just work 80 hours a week, 40 going towards paying for healthcare the rest trying to afford ramen noodles and the rent. That might be some peoples idea of utopia, I can asure you it isn't and never was the Founding Fathers idea of utopia.

We've already been through the eroding of American Culture and war waged on small business and workers. Small business being something that will cease to exist. The Culture already almost nonexistant. Distracting the Middle Class while supplanting consumerism for culture? It isn't positive, nor something to be proud of. That gap between low class and middle class is already shrinking, not because the low class is moving UP. The opposite.

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Some people are willing to step on others to get there,

Most people. The majority of corporations. THE ideal of capitalism.

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but in the end, the private sector, not the government needs to hold people to task.

No the people need to hold the people, as well as the corporations to task. The way you worded it is quite nice, actually. But we both know the republicans mean "the corporate oadrooms" when they state private sector. The World still doesn't work that way. America doesn't work that way. It never has. That's why we unionized in the first place. One could argue unions have fallen into the same corporatist trap which they have. If that means the people have to use Gov't as their voice until a workable alternative is created and implimented so be it.

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I REALLY take offense to this

I don't know what to tell you about that. If you're that easily offended then perhaps you shouldn't be trying to debate something as offensive as politics to begin with.

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the church I was at could NOT afford to hire me for what I was worth. Right now, they're barely even making ends meet!

A few questions. What kinda car does the head pastor drive? How big is his house and in what kind of neighborhood? What brand of suits and watches does he wear?

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My wages were low simply because of my SSI payments. Like I said, this will look good on a resume, and if a job should come along that pays well, I have experience. It was more fulfilling than the SSI job that paid more than what I was worth simply because someone said I should be paid that.

But wait. You're Republican, no? That's why we're debating is it not? If so then what's up with taking SSI checks? Afterall the republican ideology is you don't need it. If you're breathing you can go work and support yourself is it not?

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I'm not going to demand my rights because it was a privilege to work for them!

I'm sure it was a privilege to underpay you, as well. Apparently a win/win situation. Although the next job you get with semi decent pay and benefits, and hell the SSI checks? You're welcome. Courtesy of us Americans who DID stand up and demand what is right to be done.

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It's not the ideal, but what's money worth when you do what you love doing?

Ask those whom don't have it. Ask those Americans unemployed in MI because Ford DID take the republican way and moved to Mexico how much money is worth and if they'd rather do what they love or still have their futures, retirements they paid into they'll never see. Wages that paid the bills. Insurance for their families.

It means just as much to those without it then it does to those with the majority who DO have it. The political different? Democrats don't care anymore and Republicans, all of which reside in that upper bracket, want ALL the money while those with hardly any have even less. Welcome to modern day slavery.

To use a current example, the republican posterchild the Walton Family. They average about what, $300,000-$500,000 per day per store? How many stores they have again? One in about every city and town, over 200 I believe at last count. Monopolies. One building running 4-10 different businesses under one umbrella. So on average 4-10 less small business around in that town. Their goal and THEIR ideal is control of all the jobs in that area. The way I see it you've chosen to make yourself the only game in town for everything, thus the only employer left in that town then yeah you need to pay livable wages and give the workers good benefits.

Doesn't matter if the jobs are basic skills jobs or not. You made the choice to f' over town after town. Destroy land. Build monopolies. Run the entire local economy. You're responsible for paying out commensurate with the costs of living. If Gov't has to get involved eventually? So be it. Last I checked America wasn't created so a select few families could own and control all of it. Hence that whole freedom and liberty stuff.

:::bangs head on desk:::

What started as an interesting lighthearted conversation has become way more than I even care to get into. The world is the way it is, and we're just trying to make the best of it. Everyone is free to express themselves and I totally respect that right, but I am forced to listen to talk radio all day while my husband drives and the once or twice a week I come online I come here to unwind.
Think of me what you will, if I wanted to get into topics like this, this deeply I'd be on some political forum.

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A few questions. What kinda car does the head pastor drive? How big is his house and in what kind of neighborhood? What brand of suits and watches does he wear?

I can see where you're going with this, so I'll be happy to oblige.

His car got repo'ed last year because he couldn't make the car payments. He has had to take on a second job because the church couldn't afford to pay him, either. He took a cut in salary a couple of years ago so the church could get back on its feet. In that time, he had to take on a second job just so he could feed his family and pay the bills. His best friend got him a job as a painter, something that he did before he was asked to be the church pastor.

Now, rather than use the company painting truck (he complains about it being a gas guzzler), he's decided to take the bus wherever he goes. And on the way, he meets people who need Jesus just like you and me. There are a lot of down-sides to taking public transportation (I have to do it myself since I'm partially blind), but there are upsides to it as well. And for a pastor to meet other people who are unsaved, this is a plus.

I've been with this church for 5 years, so before you make audacious statements like the ones I quoted from you, you had better think before you jump to conclusions.

switchbladeknitter wrote:

:::bangs head on desk:::

What started as an interesting lighthearted conversation has become way more than I even care to get into. The world is the way it is, and we're just trying to make the best of it. Everyone is free to express themselves and I totally respect that right, but I am forced to listen to talk radio all day while my husband drives and the once or twice a week I come online I come here to unwind.
Think of me what you will, if I wanted to get into topics like this, this deeply I'd be on some political forum.

It's okay, dear girl, it is only ONE thread!

Paladin is strongly opined, but he is a gentleman. Don't take the "tone" of his conversation to be anything but respectful and polite, even if his words are strong and direct. I know him from other boards and he is quite a fun guy.

For everyone: we are here to encourage one another, even though we have differing opinions. No conversion is trying to take place except that which brings souls to Christ.

The body of Christ is diverse - even politically - and that diversity is needed to reach all the different people we need to reach, just as Paul taught. Our differences should make us stronger, not divisive. Let's keep that in the back of our mind at all times when we post.

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What started as an interesting lighthearted conversation has become way more than I even care to get into. The world is the way it is, and we're just trying to make the best of it. Everyone is free to express themselves and I totally respect that right, but I am forced to listen to talk radio all day while my husband drives and the once or twice a week I come online I come here to unwind.
Think of me what you will, if I wanted to get into topics like this, this deeply I'd be on some political forum.

I can respect that. IMO the thread has actually been pretty pleasant, but that's just me. Alot of good discussion. Which honestly you won't find on any political boards, they don't have discourse, just nyanya i'm right NOOOO!!!! I'M RIGHT! And so on. I understand how you feel though and respect that. Honestly I have to deal with politics(the literal kind) with my job everyday, so I can understand needing a break.

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so before you make audacious statements like the ones I quoted from you, you had better think before you jump to conclusions.

It was neither audacious nor a statement, it was a mere series of questions so as to gain insight into that of which you stated. Oh, and I do think. Always. Even when i'm asleep.

Now that is one of several times now you've tried throwing attitude towards me. It won't work. It's a decent enough effort, I suppose, but still won't work. To counter, I suggest you place the thinking cap on yourself and change your attitude.

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Paladin is strongly opined, but he is a gentleman. Don't take the "tone" of his conversation to be anything but respectful and polite, even if his words are strong and direct. I know him from other boards and he is quite a fun guy.

Danke. I appreciate that. You're correct, I am direct and to the point. Always. I'm also respectful and HAVE been respectful in this thread. Not sure really why the attitude or the "i'm offended" card has been pulled in this discussion. I thought it was going pretty well. But alas it seems to have taken its course.

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Not sure really why the attitude or the "i'm offended" card has been pulled in this discussion.

Paladin, you and I are alike with our plain talk and directness. On message boards, it is very easy for that directness to have a "tone" that is taken completely differently than the spirit in which it was given.

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To counter, I suggest...

Nope, no countering. This makes it personal and that would be a thread killer. Get off the personal (both of you), get back on the topic, and on with the conversation.

{{said gently, with a hug}}

......Slaps Paladin on the back.........
You say the things that I think except you use great tact and very indepth wording.....
I guess Im trying to say "You are what I would be if I was smart enough to be it".

idk...yeah, i mean you hear clinton and its always followed by a sharp intake of breath but obama is a...what? agnostic? i mean...to have some kind of christian beliefs is a good thing.


i think dave should be president!! w00T!!!

http://www.daveramsey.com

yea!!!

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Paladin, you and I are alike with our plain talk and directness. On message boards, it is very easy for that directness to have a "tone" that is taken completely differently than the spirit in which it was given.

Indeed. I did however strive to not do so, which is why it's strange it was taken that way.

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Nope, no countering. This makes it personal and that would be a thread killer. Get off the personal (both of you), get back on the topic, and on with the conversation.

I think the thread might already be dead! What's said is said and what it's morphed into is something different.

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You say the things that I think except you use great tact and very indepth wording.....
I guess Im trying to say "You are what I would be if I was smart enough to be it".

Aha but Jim, you ARE smart enough! You just haven't realized that yet. One day though you're going to realize you're smarter then you think, then you'll give yourself some credit, then you too will make essay length posts.

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obama is a...what? agnostic?

Well he claims he is Christian. However his life seems to consistently go counter to that. He was raised under Muslim rule and schooling. Now he says he is Christian. I'd likely be willing to say okay, you say you are you are. Considering the church he belongs to and their affinity and allied partnership with the neo-terrorist Nation Of Islam and Farrakhan racism, it raises red flags as it should.

Recently a photograph has surfaced of him dressed as an African tribesman in Africa. Compiled with his ehem, colorful background, being essentially a Kenyan, not an American, and his wifes ignorant statements there is some questions people should ask themselves. Namely is the guy whose whole history shows time and again an affinity for if not outright belief in the black power identity movement complete with what appears to be loyalty towards Africa, not America, the right choice for running America? Ask yourself why he's tried albeit poorly to hide all of that. Is the Church he attends just a front FOR the Nation of Islam and is he really just a covert Muslim? These are important questions.

You're really 14? That's good. You get to sit out this cycle, argueably the worst election cycle since the entire 1980's. The next one? It's gonna be dangerously important. Make no mistake so is THIS one but the damage appears to be already done. We're going to have alot to recover from in 2012. 8 years of Dubya compounded by at least 4 years of Barrack Hussein OR John McCain. Use your next four years to form your own opinion though, don't just take mine or anyone elses word for it.

People DO tend to say a lot of things without thinking, which is most of us, Paladin, so it didn't surprise me. Are you old enough to run for President? If so, maybe you should start a campaign. If you want to implement the type of changes you desire, then you should be the one to set the standard and start planning. Ever thought about having a career in politics? I think if you want your ideas out in the forefront, then that would be an obvious step.

apart from Paladins anti -National Socialist platform, Id vote for him LOL.

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People DO tend to say a lot of things without thinking, which is most of us, Paladin, so it didn't surprise me.

I always think about what I am going to say.

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Are you old enough to run for President? If so, maybe you should start a campaign.

To answer, no, i'm not old enough to run for POTUS. Even if I was i'm a realist, there would be no way I would win. I haven't the funds to go up against big business politicians like a Dubya, nor do I have media favor like Barrack Hussein. I'd possibly get a few thousand votes, perhaps, a long cry from what's needed to win.

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If you want to implement the type of changes you desire, then you should be the one to set the standard and start planning.

I've been planning rest assured. In order to effect political change one has to change the minds of the common people. Which is what I aim to do at this time.

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Ever thought about having a career in politics? I think if you want your ideas out in the forefront, then that would be an obvious step.

Honestly no, i've never considered the idea at any length. I've seen it all happen before, including really brilliant minds get involved politically. Before long even they became corrupted, throwing out the Aristotle and Thomas Paine for Ann Coulter and Michael Savage. Or the ideas of De Tocqueville for Michael Moore. That seems to be the nature of politics and truth be told getting America back on track might have to take place outside of politics. That machine could be too far gone. Maybe a nonviolent Revolution does need to take place.

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apart from Paladins anti -National Socialist platform, Id vote for him LOL.

I appreciate the vote, Vade. Yes, I am. You're right about that. Especially when there is a much better more effective way where almost everyone wins.

Key word...almost.

Anyway, you DO need to run for office. I mean, if God is for you, who can be against you? There is something to be said about that Scripture. If no Christian ever ran for office, how can we implement our ideas in terms of faith? Some people say the two have no place with each other, but I submit that they so, since we are not supposed to murder or steal. Those are in the Ten Commandments; however very few even acknowledge that, anymore since we don't have a lot of people walking in the ways of the Lord. However, there's always a time to start.

If I could run for President, I'd do it. However, I am a naturalized citizen, so no go. I guess I could run for Governor of California, but I am not sure the liberal hacks in the state of Cali would go for my ideas, especially if they make sense.

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Anyway, you DO need to run for office.

*I* do? I'll pass!

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I mean, if God is for you, who can be against you?

Anyone of a differing political ideology, including the Religious Right.

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If no Christian ever ran for office, how can we implement our ideas in terms of faith?

Simple. Seperation of Church and State. If we're for what the Founding Fathers created, what they personally wanted them we shouldn't attempt to institute our morality or ideology apon the entire country. That's just the way it is.

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Some people say the two have no place with each other,

The Founders seemed to think so too. I personally agree but that is me. Religion has no place in politics, has been used and perverted for political gain, and creates trivial differences. If a politician truly believes in God(such as Jimmy Carter) then awsome. Good for them. At this point it's gotten outa hand. Protest votes against decent candidates based strictly on their brand of Christian Faith and "on camera Christians" who have a "faith" as long as a camera is around, sometimes faltering even then. Remove the whole deal. Vote based on political platforms not religious ideology. That's how I see it though. Wiser minds then myself stated the same before my family even came here.

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Seperation of Church and State.

I think this is where people tend to go wrong, because what was meant by "separation of church and state" has very little to do with what we think it means. I'll look it up, but from studying in my history books (no, they were not religious books, by the way), the phrase originated from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote about a state church. Back in Great Britain, the Anglican church was the head, and this is why we do not have a state-church, where one specific denomination controls state affairs.

If you remember, David was the king, and he was in control of the government at the time. Kings had to appoint people into office. Even after Babylonian captivity, Daniel and his friends proved to be so well-educated, they were appointed in high places for King Nebuchadnezzar. Later in life, Daniel would be appointed by King Darius of Persia. So, in essence, his faith DID play a role in the affairs of state.

Also seperation of church and state is not in the US Constitution or any other document. It is merely a concept, which has been twisted and overmoralized. It was meant as a way to keep the government from dictating how people should worship, not as a means to keep morality out of the government, but many liberal-thinking politicians have used it to try and justify their crooked ways....

that was a lot of BIG words.

well put Tonne.