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PostSubject: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 1:11 pm

Hello everyone! One week until the election, and I hope you are all registered and ready to vote. In the final analysis, while I support Obama and hope that you will too, I think the act of voting for any candidate (of the several dozen that are running) is much more important than the choice.

However, I have found this election very interesting. The Republicans have really come out of the closet; they are certainly the Satanic party if there was one. Indeed, it's Obama who is imitating Christ here. I'm working on an essay right now that I'll finish tonight or tomorrow talking about why I'm voting for Obama. I'll post it here if you would like. However, I just found a great article by Stanley Fish that you might want to read. It's eye-opening.

On a final note, I read an article several weeks ago about how Obama walked into a church gathering on a Sunday afternoon at a restaurant in North Carolina. The crowd was well mannered, save one woman who angrily screamed, "Socialist!" I found this quite odd. I take it she didn't realize that the person she spent all morning worshipping (Jesus, I assume) was perhaps one of the biggest socialists of all time. Alas . . .

Cheers,

Ian

* * *
http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/the-power-of-passive-campaigning/?8dpc


Fantastic Article Fish_post
















October 26, 2008, 9:30 pm




The Power of Passive Campaigning








In
the aftermath of the 2000 and 2004 elections, the post-mortem verdict
was that the Republicans had run a better campaign. They knew how to
seize or manufacture an issue. They were able to master the dynamics of
negative advertising. They kept on message. Now, when many print and TV
commentators are predicting if not assuming an Obama victory, the
conventional wisdom is that this time the Democrats have run a better
campaign.
When did the Democrats smarten up? When did they learn how to outdo the Republicans at their own game?
The answer is that they didn’t. They decided — or rather Obama
decided — to play another game, one we haven’t seen for a while, and
it’s a question as to whether we’ve ever seen it. The name of this game
is straightforward campaigning, or rather straightforward
non-campaigning.
We saw it in the 10 days when the activity around the mounting
economic crisis was at its height. Henry Paulson alternated between
scaring members of Congress and scaring the public. Nancy Pelosi
alternated between playing the responsible Congressional statesperson
and playing the partisan attack dog. Media commentators went from one
hysterical prediction to another. John McCain went from saying there’s
nothing to worry about to saying there’s everything to worry about to
saying that he would fix everything by suspending his campaign to
saying that he was not suspending his campaign and that he would debate
after all.
And Barack Obama? He didn’t do much and he said less (O.K., he did
say some reassuring, optimistic things), and his poll numbers went up.
Weeks later, the pattern continues, but in an even more intense
form. The McCain campaign huffs and puffs and jumps from charge to
charge: Obama consorts with terrorists; he’s a socialist; he’s a
communist; he is un-American; he’s not one of us; he’s a celebrity;
he’s going to take your money and give it to people who never did a
day’s work; he’s going to sell out Israel; he’ll cozy up to foreign
dictators; he’s measuring the drapes.
In response, Obama explains his tax policy for the umpteenth time,
points out that capitalists like Warren Buffet support him, details his
relationship with Bill Ayers, lists those he consults with, observes
that Senator McCain, by his own boast, voted with President George W.
Bush 90 percent of the time, and calls for change.
What he (or his campaign) doesn’t do is bring up the Keating Five,
or make veiled references to McCain’s treatment of his first wife, or
make fun of Sarah Palin (she doesn’t need any help), or disparage his
opponent’s experience, or hint at the disabilities of age. He just
stands there looking languid (George Will called him the Fred Astaire
of politics), always smiling and never raising his voice.
Meanwhile, McCain’s surrogates get red in the face on TV when they
try to explain away the latest jaw-dropping thing Sarah Palin has said,
or proclaim that anything can happen in seven days, or respond to ever
more discouraging poll numbers by saying (how’s this for a weak cliché)
that the only poll that counts is the poll on election day. (I know
things are bad when my wife, a staunch Democrat, feels sorry for them.)
What’s going on here? I find an answer in a most unlikely place,
John Milton’s “Paradise Regained,” a four-book poem in which a very
busy and agitated Satan dances around a preternaturally still Jesus
until, driven half-crazy by the response he’s not getting, the
arch-rebel (i.e., maverick) loses it, crying in exasperation, “What
dost thou in this world?”
Now, I don’t mean to suggest that McCain is the devil or that Obama
is the Messiah (although some of his supporters think of him that way),
just that the rhetorical strategies the two literary figures employ
match up with the strategies employed by the two candidates. What Satan
wants to do is draw Jesus out, provoke him to an unwisely exasperated
response, get him to claim too much for his own powers. What Jesus does
is reply with an equanimity conveyed by the adjectives and adverbs that
preface his words: “unaltered,” “temperately,” “patiently,” “calmly,”
“unmoved,” “sagely,” “in brief.”
In response, Satan gets ever more desperate; he conjures up rain and
wind storms (in the midst of which Jesus sits “unappalled in calm”); he
tempts him with the riches of poetry and philosophy (which Jesus is
careful neither to reject nor deify); and finally, having run out of
schemes and scares and “swollen with rage,” he resorts to physical
violence (McCain has not gone so far, although some of his supporters
clearly want to), picking Jesus up bodily and depositing him on the
spire of the temple in the hope that he will either fall to his death
or turn into Superman and undermine the entire point of his 40-day
trial in the wilderness. He doesn’t do either. He does nothing, and
Satan, “smitten with amazement” — even this hasn’t worked — “fell.”
Toward the end, the poem describes the mighty contest in a metaphor
that captures its odd and negative dynamic. Jesus is “a solid rock”
continually assaulted by “surging waves”; and even though the repeated
assaults result only in the waves being “all to shivers dashed,” they
keep on coming until they exhaust themselves “in froth or bubbles.” The
power Jesus generates is the power of not moving from the still center
of his being and refusing to step into an arena of action defined by
his opponent. So it is with Obama, who barely exerts himself and
absorbs attack after attack, each of which, rather than wounding him,
leaves him stronger. It’s rope-a-dope on a grand scale.
And McCain knows it. Last Wednesday, campaigning in New Hampshire,
he spoke sneeringly about Obama’s campaign being “disciplined and
careful.” That’s exactly right, and so far the combination of
discipline and care — care not to get out too far in front of anything
— along with a boatload of money is working just fine. Jesus is usually
the political model for Republicans, but this time his brand of
passive, patient leadership is being channeled by a Democrat.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 3:09 pm

Good points Ian. I agree that there is some validity to the socialist argument for Christians, but I am not sure that the government should be the ones taking care of us. That is the problem i have. We should give freely to help those less fortunate than us.
Is it a perfect plan? Hardly.
Will people give to others out of the goodness of their hearts? Some will.
Should we be forced to help others? No.

In a perfect world, the church should be the one to care for the poor, not the government.

I found this scripture that may or may not be relevent:
Romans 13:1) Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Obama is a little too charismatic for my taste, I dont trust him. I am concerned about his turning our back on Israel, and we wont even have a say about it. I dont think government has proved that it should be the entity to control our finances and healthcare. Free enterprise is not perfect, but if we dont like it we have a choice. We can vote with our pocketbooks.
Vote your conscience everyone, this is an important election.


just some random thoughts....
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switchbladeknitter

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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 4:11 pm

Ian doll, here's where we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
To compare any politician to Jesus is laughable at best, vile and disgusting at worst. Now comparing any one of them to Satan is a lot closer to the truth than anyone might want to admit.
The thing with Obama, ok if you overlook his possible islamic ties and his church and his preacher's radical views, you still have to deal with the fact that he is an inexperienced person. I lived in the illinois/Indiana region my whole life and I never heard anything about the great things Obama did until they were trying to brag about them during the campain. Not to mention that without a doubt the most corrupt politicians come from Illinois - like um,the Daley clan anyone? Blogovich?
Yeah I'll give him that he does represent "change" but really does voting for him because you have white guilt or are a black person with your own racist views is not a good reason to vote for him. It would be like if hillary was running and you as a man felt guily for all the injustices done to women and therefore supported her.
I am very sick of some people accusing you of being a racist if you can't support a "black" man running for president.
I can support anyone who really and truly cares about the good of this nation, unfortunately I think that neither Obama or McCain truly do.

Whew! ok I got that all out. Please no one flame me too badly I can only tiptoe around things so long before I have to let it all out.

But I still think you're a pretty cool guy Ian. Actually I never even knew you were American til this post. With your sig - Cheers, Ian. I always just thought you were from across the pond.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 4:33 pm

Obama is a Christian, although that shouldn't matter. He stands up for the less fortunate. He has come from a difficult background, and is a fine person. With Obama, we have a better chance at peace and helping the less fortunate in our society. I want a president who will fight for peace, start a war on poverty, and work to give every American the opportunity to succeed, not just those born with a silver spoon in their mouth. We have a better opportunity to do this with Obama as president.

Cheers,

Ian
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 5:11 pm

I will simplify my view on this....Remember this is not coming from a professing Christian as others would call Christian. This is my honest and valid heartfelt view point.

Obama sucks. (sentence edited by PTX)

Mccain can leap from an airplain without a parchoot.

Ive seen Obamas Christianity in his churches website I believe he is pro islam which no one will convince me different.

Mccain is an old man that wont make it four years and will leave us with Palin as president...a child when it comes to politics...If Mccain makes it, four more years of Bush....

Thats my valid view point , Im sticking with it.


Last edited by PeacethroughX on Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : violent content)
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switchbladeknitter

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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 5:27 pm

I was going to add something to my post but now I shall respond and then add on.
Ian dear you sound like you listen to a lot of NPR. I hear all the same arguments on that channel everyday -Obama will help the nation McCain will destroy it and you listen to rightwing channels and all they said is that Obama is an Islamic threat to the nation & McCain will save the nation.
I think you have to listen to both sides, read what you can and then read between the lines and remember that these guys and gals who hold public office are from such a different breed than any of those they "represent" that they probably couldn't/wouldn't have a normal conversation fo more than 2 minutes.

What I was going to add is that the one conservative person running for president that I actually was liking is Alan Keyes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Keyes
that's his wiki page. he's a black man with experience and has many of the same values that I do.
And actually it does matter what religion a political candidate is. and I know Obama says he Christian. if we say we 'don't care' about religious views how screwed up are things going to get in the future - a female wiccan president. a gay athiest president. I could go on but you get my point.
ok I'm done for real. unless someone says something that really drags me back in.

you weren't shocked that I thought you were british or english? i so enjoyed hearing your posts in my mind with that accent. Wink

Jim - one thing that I will always love about you- you sugar coat nothing! Forget tiptoe-ing thru issue you come stomping thru them.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 7:38 pm

In the end, I like NPR but don't ever have a chance to listen to it, as I don't drive too often. I do read both sides of debate. You'll notice I try not to publicly trash either candidate. In elections where I feel I can, I usually vote Green or Socialist. There are simply not enough policy differences between Democrat and Republican to sway me. However, I really believe that the stakes are too great this time to elect McCain. Obama is the better person by far, and there is too great of a chance that McCain's health would put Palin in charge.

(To the British thing . . .) Ha ha! I'm sorry to burst the bubble. If you like, you can continue to imagine my posts talking with a British accent! (John Cleese, if you please . . .)

To the moderators and Jim: I would ask that you keep your wishes of death to yourself. Such talk is dangerous, and in my opinion, vile. I don't care what your religious beliefs are; to wish death on someone is horrible. This is a hard fought election, but regardless of the outcome, I wish them both only luck.

Cheers,

Ian
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 7:55 pm

And I reply to you , I dont care what your wishes are, they are no more valid nor heartfelt than mine....You are not a moderators pet as I am not either....Calling on moderators to back up your views and squelch mine are both cowardly and well, I believe I have made my point. So if you can spew your mind, I can too...I wont ask mods to shut you up, I ask that you be man enough to do the same.
You need to comprehend that when you speak about politics or religion you are going to get VERY VERY different and emotional posts. Whereas you find my posts dangerous, I find your whining to the mods both crass and cowardly, but I do not ask them to quiet you , nor do I ask you to change your tone or oppinion.....If you are going to talk religion or politics, cowboy up and be able to take a severely opposing position.
Have a wonderful day or night Ian.
Jim
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 8:19 pm

i'm with Jim.
(edited by PTX).

speaking of being to the point: http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2008/08/barack-obamas-r.html

this is a VERY worth-while video.
please, take a look.


Last edited by PeacethroughX on Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : violent content)
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 8:23 pm

I'm sorry you feel that way, Jim. I suppose you did not notice that I replied to both the moderators and you.

In the end, Jim, your opinions are your opinions. The premise of your previous message, that both candidates are not worthy of being president, is fine. If you read this thread, you'll realize that I am respectful of many different viewpoints. But if your attitude is that people should die, than you need to either retract your comments or a moderator should do it for you. You can call me whatever names you like, but I won't take your bait. You've been through a great deal, and I cannot imagine how I would deal with the things you have faced. But murderous rhetoric should have no place on this board, or in society. I comment like that in public would get you arrested. I don't know why it should be allowed here.

So I will condemn your statement Jim, but you have every right to believe that both candidates are unfit for the presidency.

Cheers,

Ian
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 8:31 pm

Have you no reply to the above video?
Perhaps you failed to open it.

Obama supported a hospital that was mercilessly killing dozens upon dozens of FULLY BORN babies. They were throwing them in baskets full of soiled linen and allowing them to die of starvation.

Which is inherently evil.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 8:39 pm

You'll notice I'm not playing that game with you. You can have your opinions and believe what you choose to believe. But making death threats is beyond the pale. I've noted why I like Barack Obama without impugning McCain. You've responded with death threats.

So if you would like to have a conversation, or let me know why you think McCain's policies would be better for the country, lay them out. Otherwise, spread your hate to someone else.

Cheers,

Ian
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 8:58 pm

Ian wrote:
You'll notice I'm not playing that game with you.

game?
I'm just making conversation in my signature, contrversial style.
(quote edited by PTX)

Personally i'm enjoying your futile attempts at shutting down both the grotesque truth, and trying to diswade my radical activism.

Concerning policies, agendas, and all of these political matters...i haven't done my homework.
I haven't done my homework because abortion is the single most important moral issue in the history of the american goverment. and I know that Osama condones it.

Until there are two candidates who are firmly against all abortion, none of the rest matters.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 9:20 pm

Jim and Victor - your gun threats will NOT be tolerated here. Towards anyone for ANY reason.

All views and opinions on politics, religion, etc. will be allowed and never edited as long as they are respectful to the issues and do not attack the person. Opposing opinions, respectfully carried out, can bring thoughtful and insightful discussions.

However, violence by gun threats will NEVER be tolerated. If you say you were speaking in jest, find a different and less violent sense of humour.

PM me if you have any questions.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 9:23 pm

I happen to know that PTX is pro obama, so I expected her to jump on it....Ill tell ya what....If my oppinion is not allowed here, suck on a gun barrel or not, I demand that you BAN me from the site....Because I think different than you should not be a threat....I WILL NOT RETRACT MY STATEMENTS NOR REFRAIN FROM MAKING THEM.....so the ball is in your court...Ban me or let me speak my mind, either way I dont give a damn./
If you choose to take the side of some politically correct upstart that has recently joined over someone thats been involved with sanctuary since 85 then sanctuary has changed into something I want to be no part of....
I await your decision tomorrow when I attempt to log in.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 9:52 pm

Metalvikng wrote:
so the ball is in your court...Ban me or let me speak my mind, either way I dont give a damn./

Speak your mind as you want - just don't call for someone to die because you disagree with their politics. That will not be tolerated.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 9:58 pm

Then ban me.....Just because I think someone should die doesnt mean I am a bad person....Youve told me it wont be tollerated....The only way to stop me from now on from speaking my mind is banning me. I refuse to allow myself to go against my beliefs in order to be politically correct and fit in with the crowd....Sanctuary started as a ministry for those that didnt fit in with the crowd.....Im sorry, I like you marsha but I cannot allow myself to be silenced any more. I would rather be Kicked off for standing for my beliefs than stay and bow down to the PC mindset.....Others are afraid to argue with moderators, I see them as humans , falible and dont fear them....and if i think they are wrong I dont respect the athourity.
Ban me or allow me to speak my mind in truth. dont just say it.....do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 11:07 pm

Quote :
...dont just say it.....do it.

Actually, I have NEVER said anything about banning you. You are the one calling for the ban.

What I said was that your death talk would not be tolerated. YOU will be tolerated... and PRAYED for... and LOVED right where you are.

(I may be losing a little patience with you, but God keeps giving me more. **wink, wink**)

Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeMon Oct 27, 2008 11:26 pm

All of this because little billy ran to teacher cause i hurt his feelings and messied up his day....simply cause I said Obama should blow his head off.
The reason I brought up banning is because I cannot lie about what I believe. I believe some should live and some should die. and the only way to stop me from speaking my mind is to ban me...
Im not daring you to do it, just stating that when politics or religion is brought up, there is going to be extreme differences of oppinion.....Running to daddy cause someone offended them and hurt their feelings is just not part of it. I never once asked them to change their mind....I never once pushed them to believe like I did......I simply WILL NOT back down speaking how I feel.
Sorry Im trying your patients, but mine is at their end with pc wimpy whiners that start potentially hot threads then cry to teacher when they get burned.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeTue Oct 28, 2008 2:46 am

**MOVED INTACT TO THE "GOD" SECTION**
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeTue Oct 28, 2008 6:38 am

I will stand against violence, but I won't take your bait.

¡Adios!

Ian
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeTue Oct 28, 2008 7:36 am

Metalvikng wrote:
All of this because little billy ran to teacher cause i hurt his feelings and messied up his day....simply cause I said Obama should blow his head off.
The reason I brought up banning is because I cannot lie about what I believe. I believe some should live and some should die. and the only way to stop me from speaking my mind is to ban me...
Im not daring you to do it, just stating that when politics or religion is brought up, there is going to be dont just say it.....do it.
.....Running to daddy cause someone offended them and hurt their feelings is just not part of it. I never once asked them to change their mind....I never once pushed them to believe like I did......I simply WILL NOT back down speaking how I feel.
Sorry Im trying your patients, but mine is at their end with pc wimpy whiners that start potentially hot threads then cry to teacher when they get burned.

You are just wrong, Jim. "extreme differences of opinions" and "potentially hot threads" can STILL be discussed respectfully without threats of violence. Trust me... I do it a lot... hehehe.

I'm going to say this gently and lovingly... for ALL concerned. No matter if you are a first time visitor or if you have been with Sanctuary since the very beginning, this board IS indeed for misfits and even miscreants who do not fit mainstream society. It IS a SANCTUARY for those who are hurting and in need of a tender touch. It is a SAFE place.

THEREFORE, calling for the DEATHS of people and the use of violence by whatever means (guns, knives, hangin, etc.) WILL NOT be tolerated on this board - your post will be deleted.
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bigjtink

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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeTue Oct 28, 2008 8:32 am

Wow, Just wow. I understand people have strong feelings. I can accept that. I also agree that this board should not be a place where violence or talk of violence should be condoned. I am voting McCain. I do however, know some really fine folks who are voting the other way. That is the beauty of this country, we have the freedom to choose.

Quote :
You are just wrong, Jim. "extreme differences of opinions" and "potentially hot threads" can STILL be discussed respectfully without threats of violence. Trust me... I do it a lot... hehehe

I agree with this. And I also dont feel Ian was out of line in any way. My take.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeTue Oct 28, 2008 9:24 am

Then get ready on your delete buttons, cause I wont be silenced.
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PostSubject: Re: Fantastic Article   Fantastic Article Icon_minitimeTue Oct 28, 2008 11:25 pm

Wow, dont know what got into me there>>?????!!!!!!!

I will comply.....
dang, sorry bout that.
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