Having some...trouble.

Subject: Having some...trouble. Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:29 am

I've been having a bit of trouble lately.

Several events that have transpired lately have made me realize how many flaws this religion has. I don't understand why I'm to worship a man who claimed so many things that every other god or deity has claimed, I don't understand how I'm supposed to read this book and have faith. Everything that could not be proven was simply to be "believed" we are told to have faith because some things are simply...beyond us.

So below is an email between myself and a priest at a pagan coven in australia. Please keep in mind that I'm not converting, I'm simply getting a better understanding of these other religions...some of the below that he explained makes sense, some of it is more preposterous than what I'm slowly shunning away from.

All of the below is true, and I was considering posting about it but didn't...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,

My name is Victor Fain, I live nowhere near your coven, nor am I a pagan. As of this moment I'm a catholic, but read on.

For a week or so I did not sleep, I didn't know why...then,
not long ago, I slept! It was the soundest sleep I'd had that I could
recall. But--I was constantly dreaming...something I didn't recognize
at first, but later I could see swirls of color, red, green, and a blue
or purple. About the same time of the colors I started hearing
something, only the words "hoof and horn" and something about a vine and grain or something, so naturally I researched it.

I was shocked to find that hoof and horn was some kind of a pagan
chant. But as I am falling away from Catholicism anyway I didn't speak
with my priest. I don't trust him, or most any others, I'm slowly
seeing all the faults in my religion and this dream really...well, not
disturbed me, but, concerned me. As I have never before heard this
song, nor spoken with any non-Christians about their religion.

I am sorry to bother you, (whoever "you" are) but nothing I find
on line will tell me what religion, precisely, this chant, has origins
in. If you could clarify for me what or who it is these so-labeled
"pagans"worship I would be very grateful.

Thank you,
Victor

Hello Victor,
Pagans
do not necessarily 'worship' anything - we are more inclind to use
words like revere, acknowledge, honour, etc. Some of us feel that the
word worship implies submission to authority - we do not necessarily
believe or experience the Divine as authority. The Divine
to Pagans is everywhere, in everything and Nature (what simply is and
what flows) is definitely an expression of that. In this we are
Pantheistic (the divine is All; in All). Many of us are also
polytheistic - believing in many Gods. Just like there is a you and a
me, and a cat and a table, so are there many Gods - we live in a
divine, plural world and this expresses that reality. Many Pagans
connect with the ancient Gods of older civilisations and peoples - the
Greeks, the Egyptians, the Celts, the Nords, etc. Most Pagans also
experience Life as a unity of wholeness that we are all connected to
and through; in fact together we are the Wholeness of the Unity and
many people call this unity God. Pagans tend to use words like Great
Mystery, Spirit, or even Love. Essentially, however, Pagans can be
defined by their diverse nature and their aware and conscious
connection with the Earth and its mysteries.

"Hoof and Horn" is a chant that we sing at harvest festivals and the
full chant: "Hoof and horn, Hoof and horn, all that dies shall be
reborn. Corn and grain, Corn and grain, all that falls shall rise
again." speaks of the mysteries of Life, Death and Rebirth, and how
this continues one after the next. Seeing ivy is important too as it is
a symbol of everlasting-life. I hope that answers some of your
questions. I also hope you understand that Pagans are not
anti-Christian, we are simply non-Christian, we simply do not engage
with any idea that God is away from or above us in anyway. Afterall we
are al children of the Divine.

Blessings, Eilan - a Priest of the Coven of the WildWood
May the WildWood flourish in our hearts and minds
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/wildwoodcoven
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to thank you sincerely, Eilan.

Yes,
you've answered a great many of my questions. And, to be honest, much
of what you have said makes perfect sense to me. And I know pagans are not anti-christian from my
research. I think your worship (if i may call it that) is a beautiful
thing.

Thank you again, bless you
-Victor

Sorry for the wack spacing--It was a copy/paste of course, and I don't feel like editing.

Anyway--I'd like to hear what you guys have to say on this matter. If indeed there is a matter...maybe I'm just really tired.

Subject: Re: Having some...trouble. Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:54 am

What you are experiencing may be a "normal" (for lack of a better word) spiritual struggle that most Christians face at one time or another.

Angels/demons DO talk to us while we sleep and give us visions and dreams - this is the time we are most vulnerable spiritually to receive what we would consciously "blow off" during our awake time. Only when we prayed up and taught to recognize these voices and images, through study and prayer, can we distinguish between the two and guard our mind and emotions against the non-Christian images/thoughts.

And when I say "guard", I mean so that they do not influence YOU in a way that brings confusion and doubt to the truth of Jesus Christ. Many a prophet (or a budding prophet...) will receive images that are pagan in order for a word of knowledge to flow from him/her regarding the truth of Christ.

"Flaws this religion has..." Do you mean Christianity as a whole or the denomination of Catholicism? If you don't care to discuss this publicly, it can be taken to PM or email, or as far as you wish.

Just know that you are cared for deeply, Victor - your questions are important, your yearnings for truth are important, and if we can, we would love to help you through this time.

I love you

Subject: Re: Having some...trouble. Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:25 pm

Quote :: "Flaws this religion has..." Do you mean
Christianity as a whole or the denomination of Catholicism?

Yes.
I mean Christianity a whole. The Catholic religion being just one of the many...off springs. I doubt that this discussion will truly go anywhere, as I am looking for logical reasoning and concrete proof where the modern day christian thrives on faith alone, but perhaps it will.

I'm not necessarily looking to "get through this time", I'm more looking for permanent, life long answers. Sooo much of what this priest had to say makes sense. Connecting with the world around you, being at peace, and being one WITH NATURE sounds heavenly. But...then again, all they're doing is worshiping several gods that have just as little proof as "the God" so I don't know.

I am certainly no longer calling my self a catholic. Christian...yes, I think so. But that, too is in direct danger on the grounds that none of christianity is making sense right now. And if something doesn't make sense to me, if i can't reason it, work through it in my head I refuse to accept it as truth.

So I really don't know what to say. I don't know if I should ask for prayer, if perhaps I should try to distance my self from society for a while so that I can draw up some conclusions that fit...I dunno.

Thank you, marcia, for listening and for replying. I'll think about what you had to say and pray on it, perhaps something will change...

Subject: Re: Having some...trouble. Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:32 pm

Quote :: Connecting with the world around you, being at peace, and being one WITH NATURE sounds heavenly.

It sounds heavenly because IT IS heavenly. Maybe all you need is a little hippie-style Christianity. Wink

"Logical reasoning" and "concrete proof" can be found in comparing Scripture with historical evidence, but it is not something that can be found in an afternoon or two of research. Another problem is that others have "written historical proof" that conflicts with Scripture. So the question is STILL one of faith - which "written historical proof" do you choose to believe?

The same goes for "concrete" proof - unless you were there and witnessed it yourself, you are taking someone else's word for it that it was created, it happened, it was built, it evolved, etc. Scientists, architects, geologists, anthropologists, and even theologians all disagree and argue among each other.

If I may, Victor... forget men and their theories and discussions. Forget me, your Catholic priest, the pagan priest, and even your parents (all of which needs to be done respectfully, though - hahaha) and get to know the man of Jesus all over again. Read about him, his life, his words and his actions.

Read about his love for his friends, his miracles and his parables. Take a few weeks or months to examine his life and then see where you stand. What do you think?

Subject: Re: Having some...trouble. Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:23 pm

Quote :: Read about his love for his friends, his
miracles and his parables. Take a few weeks or months to examine his
life and then see where you stand. What do you think?

This, I will do. But also I will read the mysteries and wonders of other religions that have what I believe to be a good moral code.

Subject: Re: Having some...trouble. Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:37 pm

all I can suggest is reading
http://www.annerice.com/Bookshelf-Memnoch.html

honestly when I was your age I delved into wicca, a little lavey threw in some athiesm and it was honestly this book that slapped my back into being at least open to the path of light.
I was already in love with all her vampires before I read this but I have turned many people onto Anne Rice from this book.
You can get a used copy from Amazon for a few bucks I'm sure. Just read it you will thank me when you're done I know it. I have even got a hardcore athiest at least partially open to a 'divine power' because of this book.

I honestly think that everyone goes through a stage where they question everything they were taught to believe, it's natural and you can only truly accept anything after you make it wholly your choice to accept it.
You know the stove is hot but you won't truly believe it til YOU touch it yourself right?

Subject: Re: Having some...trouble. Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:41 pm

A couple of points that come to mind...

1. Christianity is the only "religion" where God is reaching down to man...all the others are man reaching "up" to god or a deity, etc... God wants to have fellowship with us, he created us to worship Him, the Creator of the universe. Because he also gave us free will, we can chose to reject him, we are not forced to love Him. Sin caused a divide between us and God, but He still provided a way to restore that relationship through the Perfect sacrifice of Jesus. It's about relationship, not religion.

2. Why should we worship creations, when we are also creations? Is one creation more deserving of worship than another? I believe it makes more sense to worship the Creator.

good questions Victor, I hope this helps at least a little.
Read The Shack!!!

Subject: Re: Having some...trouble. Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:07 pm

Gary, I commend you for excellence in profound statements. lol
What you said makes a good bit of sense, and I'll remember those.

DI! The stars must be in alignment, as I am fascinated with the movie "interview with the vampire" and only just now am I realizing it was a book, so i just ordered it. sooo, if that one is book 5 i'll be getting around to it very, very soon. Very Happy

Subject: Re: Having some...trouble. Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:50 am

Hey Victor, I've been away for a while, just really busy. I can understand you questioning everything at your age, as most people do - however, be careful what you do dabble in, if you do.

This stuff is for real and is not a game. The devil is real, and is a deceiver, and is out to kill, steal from and destroy you. I know this first hand because when I was a bit younger than you, I forsook Jesus altogether and dove into magic and the supernatural with my friend Julia.

It has taken years to get the demons I allowed into my life, to leave me alone.

Just remember that.

Love,
Tonya

Subject: Re: Having some...trouble. Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:16 pm

Victor my heart swells with joy that you are going to be reading Anne's books. I have read them all (the vampire chronicles anyway) numerous times.
As you go thru them we can chat about them I don't want to spoil the journey you are about to take.

Subject: Re: Having some...trouble. Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:03 pm

Quote :: The devil is real, and is a deceiver, and is out to kill, steal from and destroy you.

And if all else fails, if humanity, reason and scripture fails...bom badada!! SLAP HIM WITH THE BIBLE!!

Take a deep breath, I was playing around--honestly.

Di, I'm half way through interview, I been busy so I only have nights, but since I don't have a door yet I can only use the booklight and i keep falling asleep and drooling on it. Sad