Church "Protocol"...I Know Nothing About It...O.o

My Pastor is very gentle. He's gentler than any other Pastor we've ever had. He's also older...than any other Pastor we've ever had. But today from the pulpit, he called me by name and told me that if God had a refrigerator, my picture would be on it. Who can resist that?

But - last week, we had a discussion with the two teenage girls on our worship team, about the way they dress...they wear REALLY short skirts, tight-tight clothes, low cut cleavage-baring tops and the like. So we had a discussion as a team and that way we wouldn't have anybody saying anything to them directly and have them get mad & leave...right? So that all went well, and today they showed up dressed nice & modest.

I'm a jeans & t-shirt person. I wear big oversized t-shirts, usually with something Christian on them, (like my Sanctuary one, thank you Bob!) and nice jeans, to play up front, and so does my hubby. The worship leader guy is a realtor and has to show houses after church, so he wears dress pants, a dress shirt and a tie. No biggie.

Well, after we had the discussion with the girls, I caught my Pastor (who is like, 70 years old) on the way out the door. I told him it went well, and he said, "Great. Now I have some things to talk to YOU about". My stomach dropped like a brick. That day, I had on slip-on chucks, a pair of (rather preppy, for me) pre-bleached capri jeans with paisley embroidery on the ankle of one leg, and a plain black t-shirt.

My Pastor said, "You could look more presentable". My jaw dropped. I had done my hair and makeup, and my clothes were clean and pressed, and I thought I looked fine. We had a discussion about how my jeans came that way (He called it "tie-dye", LOL) and how it was the style, and how those WERE my nicest jeans I had. He told me with a wink, "Just wear your best", and I walked out, kinda grieved.

He had told me that that style of jeans were too much for our congregation to handle. I told him that honestly I believed in being myself before the Lord. He asked me what if the girls said they wanted to be theirselves, and show off their bodies. I told him that was different - there was a scripture that said for women to cover themselves, and that there was no scripture about people wearing suits and ties to church.

Then he said the strangest thing.....

.....he said......"Yes, but there's also PROTOCOL."

What is protocol? I have no idea what protocol is, and when I told my husband, he said the same thing, and also said he didn't want to know what it was.

Man - it took us forever and a day to decide we were going back to my mom & dad's church. John is finally being allowed to play burnin' guitar solos during worship and all the older people love it!

So - today I sucked it up and wore a BLACK swingy skirt and a BLACK tshirt and BLACK sandals. I'm still going to be me - I didn't stutter!

Today he said to me afterwards - "Hey - thank you by the way for the improved appearance today".

This bothers me for two reasons:

1) I feel like there is way too much "keeping up of appearances" in the church. I feel like the whole suit and tie thing IS 'dressing like the world' in a way because it is MAN'S standard that comes from the corporate world, and I do NOT feel like I should have to dress like I'm going to a job interview to lead worship, and neither do the other members of the worship team.

2) What grieves me the most is that our church says that they want the younger generation in there, (which they don't have, I might add other than us and Charles' daughters!) BUT if my little preppy WalMart capri jeans were "too much" for them, what in the HECK are they gonna do when the 'younger generation' does come in there? Do they have any idea how THEY dress - or worse yet how many of them act?

LOL

Today we had a 12 year old boy show up in an AC/DC shirt.

He said he likes metal.

Rock on, little brotha!

I'm making him a CD next week and including lots of bands you and I are familiar with.

The "protocol" is set by the pastor, and he approached you in love and gentleness with his protocol for his church.

Now I am going to say a dirty word: submission.

Yes, it's a dirty word for this generation, especially women. It is considered an old-fashioned, antiquated, not for today's church because most women (and men) see it as a form of abuse and/or cause to abuse.

It is not - it is a call from the Lord for us to submit to the authority (another dirty word in today's world) in our church.

Your personal wardrobe perferences aside, it actually boils down to this: You have been approached lovingly and gently (your words) by your pastor with a request he feels strongly about. He is your authority - will you submit? (It's okay - I know that last sentence just made your blood boil....)

HOWEVER.... a gentle and loving discussion can also ensue about his protocol for "wear(ing) your best". You've made it clear he is very approachable. Don't stew in silence (I doubt you would anyway - hehehe)

Now it becomes a meeting of the minds to find your best. His generation do not consider jeans to be the best choice of wardrobe, however our generation does. Maybe it was more the T-shirt. Face it, no matter how clean and even pressed the T-shirt is, it is still a T-shirt, and they tend to look sloppy on us larger women.

I have no clue what "chucks" but maybe wearing the black sandals with jeans and just a black shirt that is not a T-shirt would be a compromise? (I wear Birkenstocks ONLY for shoes, and black is my favorite color. Pretty much my whole wardrobe is jeans, long and short, black shirts of many varieties and styles, and black Birkenstocks. But, hey, I work for Birkenstock, too!)

Pray first about talking to him, and receiving from him, but also pray about making your convictions of dressing for this particular ministry known to him in a respectful way.

I'll be praying, too.

Hmmm. Yes - very interesting.

I grew up in a Baptist church - southern baptist - and the protocol (which is just 'the way things are done' - and are typically unwritten - afaik) was "Sunday best" - men wore suits, women wore dresses or skirts, and us kids had to suffer through dress clothes - every sunday.

I didn't really become aware that we were doing something different until I was a teen. Cause it was just 'how it was done'. As a teen, I wanted to dress comfortable - but that didn't go over well. I wore a lot of Stryper shirts! There were other issues as well. . .

Today I attend a non-conventional church - the pastor wears jeans & a jacket usually. I'm on the worship team, and typically wear t-shirt, jeans or shorts. Most everyone wears jeans - although no one looks odd at the guy that comes in a suit. We want to present to the world that Jesus wants us 'as we are'. That's our protocol.

YMMV.

Great answer from Peace though. . . I'll be praying too.

I tend to be against the church legislating culture (Rev 22:18-19 comes to mind), but doing so is perennial and probably inevitable (cf. F. F. Bruce, Tradition: Old and New).

Quote :

Tonnenator: "what in the HECK are they gonna do when the
'younger generation' does come in there? Do they have any idea how THEY
dress - or worse yet how many of them act?"

Just a thought, but could he think of you as more than just one of the crowd, i.e. as a leader?? I think of you as a leader. Might the "protocol" he has in mind for you be a leadership protocol?? Might he have something more in mind for you than pew-warming? I have no idea; I'm just wondering...

Hey, admins, that Quote looks pretty dark on my screen right now, does anybody else have trouble seeing it?

sirhemlock wrote:

Hey, admins, that Quote looks pretty dark on my screen right now, does anybody else have trouble seeing it?

Yup - it's pretty dark. . . had to get real close. . .

:bounce:

Yeah I'm sure he does see me as a leader but I just feel a conviction about us trying to conform to the world's view of leadership. I always have. I'm willing to submit, but I also feel strongly that the starchiness needs to go bye-bye to a large extent in the church overall, if we're to reach this generation....

This line bears repeating: Pray first about talking to him, and receiving from him, but also pray about making your convictions of dressing for this particular ministry known to him in a respectful way.

Every generation wants to be unique in their dress and hair to define themselves. Jeans and T-shirts became popular dress among young people starting in the fifties with males and really caught fire with both sexes as "standard teen protocol" in the late sixties and seventies. (I have a feeling this is a style of clothing that will be with us a loooong, long time, with just a few more throwbacks and variations.)

You can show him how clothes build an identifiable sense of trust and recognition among peers. His own request proved that. (It also showed the double standard his generation had for women's dress - did he ask your husband to wear his best, too, or are jeans and T-shirts okay for him? There's a history lesson for ya!)

Most of all, though, pray about approaching him in love and respect. You know your passions can run to an angry outburst if you're not prayed up fully.

We're pluggin' for ya! (i.e. praying...) Go win this one for our generation!

I want to be a clone...

Peace, I admire you (not for the first time).

I have done similar things -submitting to church leadership on matters I strongly disagreed- trying all the while to hold the vomit down. I think God honors that when it's unto him, and it's rare today.

My dear SirH, you are way too kind. It's really that age and experience have taught me which battles are worth making a monumental fuss over, which are worth a just a little fuss, and even to recognize that there are some issues that, while important to some, are really just a trade-off, and not worth a lot of fuss.

Clothes are a perfect example of the latter. Clothes are a necessity of life, thanks to Adam and his crap. Having worked in upper management of a big retail chain for over ten years, my clothes were chosen for me by a dress code. Whatever... they had their reasons, they paid me well and treated me well, so I complied. I viewed it as a trade-off.

To a degree, it's the same with Tonne. Her pastor has blessed her with a place for her youth group, free of charge, FULL of extras for the kids she could not provide at her home. She can dress there however she wishes, and as I understand it, pretty much do whatever she wishes with the kids.

Sunday morning worship is more of the pastor's time, his teaching, and his space. Give him his what he wants for Sunday morning worship, and consider it a trade-off, or approach him with the right heart and convince him of the need for individual expression in dressing for Sunday morning worship. If he is convinced, in love, of the importance of dress in this particular evangelical endeavor, then all have won.

Any other attitude than love, and submission in love, gives satan more tools for his divisive work.

I understand where you're coming from Peace, and I pretty much agree with you --- however, my concern is that this is a church of mostly older people, and they cannot seem to get any young people who visit, to stay.

My mom & dad have gone there since I was fifteen. This church used to be one of THE churches for local Christian metalheads, because two different local metal bands - Legacy and Allegiance, were represented there.

We had a thriving, although not huge, youth ministry there when I was a teenager. Part of the reason was that the original Pastor had three teenagers of His own, and most of our youth group were friends of theirs.

Through the past 20 years, I've seen them struggle, going through one Pastor after another after an unfortunate situation where I guess the original Pastor got kinda full of himself or something from what I've been told, and they literally had to fire him. Then they got this guy in there that was a real piece of work, and John & I were leading worship then, and we ended up leaving because that guy and his wife kinda freaked us out.

That guy up and left, and then another guy came in, real nice guy, young guy about my age, sweet wife who I loved to pieces, but it seemed like he would be excited about doing outreach but then would get cold feet and not do anything, or maybe something else was going on that I don't know about...

Anyways every time they changed Pastors they lost people.

Then to make matters worse, WalMart went in. The church is in a small town, Canal Winchester, that is building up a lot and just recently became a city. When WalMart went in, they messed up the roads. Waterloo St. used to go straight from Gender Road, past the church and straight into town. Everybody knew that if you wanted to go to Canal you would go down Waterloo.

So the flow of traffic used to go straight past the church.

Now, the roads are all screwed up.

They made Waterloo go past WalMart, which was built in the field across from the church. The little piece of Waterloo that's left (I know, it's confusing) goes past BP and the church and then is a dead end. You have to turn right across a little connecter street they made, to get to the "real" Waterloo St, and to WalMart.

Their sign needs to be turned, for one thing because now people will sit at the stop sign on the connecter street and face the church, but they won't see the sign unless they crane their neck to the right, towards the dead end street.

A lot of people around there think it's a daycare or a food pantry.

It's like it disappeared.

John & I, our son Tommy, and a handful of friends we have going there now (our "followers" who follow us from church to church, ha ha) are almost the only people there under 40.....well, John isn't under 40 anymore but don't tell him I told you so! LOL

So it bums me out that something.........is running off the young people. Young people will visit from time to time but they never stay. For one thing - there's nothing there for them! They have no youth leader and no youth group except ours, which is independent.

So hopefully now you get where I'm coming from.

Something is running off the young people, and something needs to change. These are the most loving, accepting people I have ever attended church with, so it's not that sort of problem.....

Here's something that has worked for me...

Sunday mornihng seems to be the time where we all come together for worship, and we are all there for His honor and glory. I have gotten used to the idea of wearing dresses then. It's probably because I enjoy wearing them. Sunday night comes along and I'm dressed down a bit, but still looking like I didn't just put myself together. Here's something to munch on. I'm just used to the way things have been for awhile. Even if you are dressed up, somewhat.

Ok, sometimes I look like I've just put myself together. However, think of it this way. Many kids these days feel like nothing matters. I know this from listening to them talk. If you look like you're interested in what is going on without looking overly dressed-up, then I think you can reach them at a certain point. Inside, you know they are screaming for something that matters. So, if you like there's something that matters, then they'll see it in you.

Just my 2 1/2 cents here.

I love getting dressed up on sunday mornings for church!
Usually sunday and wednesday evenings are casual so that gives a little bit of both..

Of course, I haven't been to church in forever because I can't find one I like here... I need to move someday.

Texas folk are a bit... stiffy... it's a whole nother country..

I've spent a little time in Texas, Candi.... you need to move soon! hehehe.....

One less thing to worry about now that I've left the church, how freaking rediculous!

My confusion has actually begun to subside, I don't blame God for any of this, I'm just seeing the divine in a new light, just sayin', not every one can hear it!

It sounds like your pastor is old school enough that he's merely passing on to you the conventions of his day. He's obviously old enough to have been from the day where that's how people did it at church. Not wrong or right, just how they chose to do it.

I have another angle on this issue. Having been at a few different churches over my 20 years of being a believer, I'm also familiar with the "having respect for your brothers and sisters" school of thought. Meaning, not that we dress according to a conformist (or perceived conformist) ideal, but that we show others that we have respect for them and honor them (not worship, honor) as we gather with them to worship.

This may or may not (even fully or partially) apply to your situation. That's for you to decide. I've been in exactly your situation, however, it wasn't another person who said anything to me. I was convicted in my own spirit about the issue.

The Changeling wrote:

One less thing to worry about now that I've left the church, how freaking rediculous!

Sounds like someone is running from something rather than dealing with it. Jesus gave us to each other in order to grow up in Him. Wouldn't you agree?

Aaah, I've created a monster! LOL I've been away for a while, and my, how my little fledgeling post has grown! It's a big girl, now.

So um, basically what I've done, is, stopped wearing those jeans to church. I also stopped wearing t-shirts. I always did this part, but I always make sure my belly is covered and I'm not showing any cleavage. And when I say belly covered, I'm talkin' shirts that cover....the part of my belly that pops out, like down to my hips. I just don't like to even have people see my fat belly in my pants!

Now does this mean that I don't wear all black? Heavens, no! It's about all I have, that isn't jeans or t-shirts! Do I still accessorize gothically? Heckas yeah! LOL

Nobody seems to mind the all black, or the gothic accessorizing. Also, the velvet pants season is upon us, which makes me happy. I would wear velvet pants all year long, if I could.

So yep I am still me and I don't care, but I am taking my Pastor's age into consideration and not wearing those or any other jeans, or t-shirts, anymore. And I saw myself on camera and understood what he meant by "improved image". I looked pasty and pale and like I just rolled out of bed even though I had had a shower and clean hair.

So now I get up early enough to fix my hair and put on makeup, even though lately the spirit of God has moved in such a way that there is almost no point in wearing eyeliner! LOL I still wear it though. You need to see that I have eyes. I actually put on a bit more makeup for the stage now than I used to and it looks a lot better. I also wear blush which is inherently ungoth but I don't care because there is a difference between looking goth and looking dead. I am Irish and I look the latter without some blush or bronzer.

Besides, my Pastor loves me and I know he does, and he's a sweet old guy, and I love him, too and don't want to offend him. He's a backslapper and a "Love ya"-er and one heck of a piano player. He's just old school but at least he's mature unlike some other Pastors I've had in recent years.

I don't think he would EVER...shut down a youth group for us having financial problems. (In fact they were asking us to be their youth leaders for a short while there until we told them we didn't feel called to be church youth leaders). He also would never tell us that we hadn't adopted Tommy, and I don't think he would talk about us behind our backs or spread gossip like both of my last Pastors did.

This is not counting the lady at Club Ark's church where Tommy and I parked it for a while before returning to Faith A/G with John. They were cool to us, but then we weren't there long enough to get involved.

People there love us SOOOO much and they really really love John. This is the ONLY church where they will let John wail on electric guitar solos, in all 16 years we've been married, and everybody says they really feel the Holy Spirit when he plays, and they shower us with compliments every time we play, and compliment us about our youth ministry until I blush and get tears in my eyes and want to hide under a table, LOL. They give us "Pentecostal handshakes" for our youth group when they say "Hi how ya doin, praise the Lord!" and shake your hand and then you walk away with $20 or $40 or whatever, in your palm.

They are very loving and we have taken several Hot Topic clotheshorses (LOL) from our bible study there to visit and nobody even batted an eye despite all the Nightmare Before Christmas t-shirts and Tripp pants.

In fact one older couple curiously asked me what it means when people wear all black, and chains and stuff, and I told them it pretty much isn't much different than poodle skirts, and they said, "Oh! Ok!" LOL then went on to explain to me that when they were teenagers that people would wear a dog collar on their ankle if they were going steady. Then Tommy piped in "Now we wear them on our necks or wrists". They got a good laugh out of that.

So yeah good things are happening and I don't care that I don't get to wear my favorite jeans.

I just change into them when I come home.



And no, Marcia, the word submission does not make my blood boil.

Does it yours?